**Update, I covered this blog post on Episode 38 Vegan Dot Com, which you can directly download here, or preferably subscribe and get from my iTunes listing,
http://itunes.apple.com/nz/podcast/coexisting-with-nonhuman-animals/id334206335
**
An Open Letter to Erik Marcus
(because I'm just *CERTAIN* you're one of my five listeners!)
Dear Erik,
When I had first become Vegan, I listened to your debate with Professor Gary Francione, perhaps the finest 32kbps mono MP3 file I've ever heard. You are indeed a master of lossy audio compression, my own episodes waste more drive space, while offering a fraction of the actual content, kudos to you and Francione.
I quickly realised where I stood on the issues discussed, larger cages for Hens, of awarding "feel good terms" to those who buy animal flesh and bodily secretions, to learning how "Happy Meat" animal products can be compared to a "Connecticut minimum security prison". Do you not find it odd that 56 Billion totally innocent land animals get to ride ol' Sparky each year? Remind me not to jaywalk in Connecticut!
Erik, one of your most recent blog posts offended me:
"Between the resultant higher feed grain costs and the end of direct production subsidies for meat and dairy products, animal agriculture as we know it would cease to exist. That this sort of move is even on the table for public discussion shows that we’ve reached a pivotal moment, and that an unprecedented opportunity has fallen into our laps.
If there’s ever been a time for vegans to team up with conscientious omnivores to push an issue, this is it."
http://www.vegan.com/blog/2010/11/14/seizing-the-moment-to-eliminate-farm-subsidies/
No, "This Is It" featured a NON MOONWALKING MJ, I mean, what kind of rip off is that? Its a little like a "Vegan dot com" without the Vegan.
I can assure you, as a New Zealander, living in a country without subsidised animal agriculture, this will do nothing to help the animals. We are sadly quite efficient at *exporting* animal flesh and their bodily secretions, our "free market" does not involve "an invisible hand" "cooking the books", that hand's too busy cooking the animals I love and care for.
"Output and net incomes for the New Zealand dairy industry are higher now than before subsidies ended--and the cost of milk production is among the lowest in the world."
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0303/newzealand_subsidies.shtml
Your article was forwarded online among many non-vegans, including New York Times Food Journalist Mark Bittman
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| Note pan-cooked tofu |
The term you used, "conscientious omnivores", albeit shortened above for a Tweet, has become a buzzword, a way to feel good about ourselves. Rather than saying "I like to eat dead animals! I find their bodily secretions rather yummy!", hip non-vegans may now instead boast "oh, I'm a *conscientious omnivore* you know, I onnnnnnnnnly eat *humanely* slaughtered animals you know, because I care for them soooo much....you know..." And where are they getting this "Temple Grandin=Animal Rights activist" thumbs up from? Vegan dot com.
Your debate with Professor Francione had a mention of how Welfare promotion could cause his rescued dogs to bark. I end this open letter with mention of how each time a curious non-vegan discovers "Vegan dot com", and its backing of "free range" methods of killing Chickens - and all other animals - my friend Mr Rooster glowers in disapproval :
 |
| My FURIOUS feathered Friend |
He may be a Bantam, I may be 1.95 metres tall (6 feet 5 inches), but I find him TERRIFYING when he gets in this state!
Please Erik, change your websites URL, (might I suggest "nonvegan.com" or "antivegan.com"?), if not for me, then for the animals I love.
Yours,
Jordan Wyatt
Invercargill,
NEW ZEALAND
P.S I would love to hear you debate with Professor Francione again
*update* (wheres that blink tag...) Due to an influx of A new reader, a sequel post can be found here http://coexistingwithnonhumananimals.blogspot.com/2011/01/ethically-obligated-to-protest-burying.html *update*
**Update, I covered this blog post on Episode 38 Vegan Dot Com, which you can directly download here, or preferably subscribe and get from my iTunes listing,
http://itunes.apple.com/nz/podcast/coexisting-with-nonhuman-animals/id334206335
**
I too, have asked Eric Marcus to give up the name vegan.com.
ReplyDeleteHis latest homage to whole foods meat labeling, had me wondering if he actually is... who he says he is.
This is, most certainly, NOT the kind of advocacy I wish to see emanating from a web site called vegan.com.
Thank you very much for your comment sulay!
ReplyDeleteI wish Erik would focus on promoting Veganism too. Have you heard his debate with Professor Gary Francione?
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/media/mp3/eriks-diner-2007-02-25.mp3
You can find Professor Franciones website here
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/
I think its an awful shame that Vegan.com does not redirect to The Abolitionist Approach.
I agree with the content and the arguments outlined here...however, I also think it's good to engage with vegans who support "humane animal products" (or welfarism) under the following principles: 1) assume that they have good intentions (even if they don't). it's good to attack the consequences of what they are doing, not their motivations. and 2)acknowledge the good that they have done in the past. Erik Marcus on his podcast has talked a lot about ways to promote veganism (ie... creative non-violent education), and so why not acknowledge that while taking issue with the more problematic aspects?
ReplyDeleteAlthough Francione is my personal hero and I agree 99% with most of his views, I think altering the tone (not the arguments) towards other advocates might be beneficial in the long-run.
-William Nee
Hi William! Thank you for posting a comment :)
ReplyDeleteI am quite sure Erik is a nice person, but I strongly disagree with what he promotes. Normally, I've never felt the need to write "an open letter to him", however his post was just NUTS.
"...if there’s ever been a time for vegans to team up with conscientious omnivores to push an issue, this is it." The two are nothing alike, I certainly don't think there is a "compromise" possible when we are talking of killing animals, what, would we "just kill 50% of them"? :) A life is priceless, an individual is a whole, and not divisible into "cuts of meat", or of different bodily secretions for that matter.
I believe Erik has been openly hostile towards those who have the crazy idea of "Vegans promoting Veganism", and while I mean him no harm, I most certainly could not agree with his post, nor his previous posts spanning several years.
On the issue of subsidised farming, I know this topic very well, and my countries animal agriculture sector is, if anything, STRONGER from being "on their own"! Even if it were the other way, that we'd spend our time and money asking for subsidies to stop (in the worlds biggest promoter of the "free market"...), this would be be all the less time spent promoting Veganism.
On these issues, I can also look to my Chicken Friends William, the *least* we can do for them is to leave them alone, to not hurt them. I wouldnt promote *any* action that hurts or KILLS them for our pleasure/and or profit.
I would love nothing more than for Erik to become an Abolitionist Vegan, to promote Veganism, afterall, he has a great website address for it!
You're right William, its always best to debate ideas, not the man (or woman/Chicken Friend etc) :)
That is one angry rooster.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the laugh...I read Marcus' post earlier today and my blood boiled
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThank you Corey :)
ReplyDeleteThanks for the response JayWontdart...I know exactly what you mean (I consider myself an abolitionist vegan too)!
ReplyDeleteYou might also add that, politically speaking, subsidizing agribusiness is one issue both political parties in the US can agree on (since big agribusiness interests span many states in red and blue America, and the Citizens United decision won't help), and personally, I see absolutely no path for ending large agribusiness subsidies. (And as you point out, it wouldn't mean the end of animal use anyway)!
And, as Francione has often pointed out, if rates for steak go up, people will switch to processed meats or less expensive meats - not plant foods.
Anyway, I suppose I was just trying to lay out general principles that might be useful in convincing other advocates. I think it would take a lot of courage, or a big swallowing of pride, if you will, for a prominent welfarist to switch sides after publicly endorsing a (mistaken) position for so long. They need to be thrown some sort of face-saving lifeline in my opinion.
Of course, I may be naive...!
-William
Hi William!
ReplyDeleteI think the issue is more than it is a waste of our time as Animal Advocates to be spending LITERALLY millions of dollars on every tiny issue that comes up, "oh, we need X million to get THESE cages larger", "oh, we need XX million so that the..." And they are all meaningless reforms. I can think of all the times I've spoken to people, online, in person, it doesnt matter, and they'll say "oh, but I buy the GOOD kind of flesh..." Where have they gotten these ideas? From "the animal rights people"!
If we just focus on promoting Veganism, we *actually* help nonhumans, funny that? :)
I'm sure Erik is a nice person, I dont know him personally. I feel very strongly about this issue, I think its all rather simple to understand, especially in this minor topic about "farm subsidies". Its simple: we dont have them in my country RIGHT NOW, *and* my country is now a greater *exporter* of animal flesh and the bodily secretions we take from them , than ever before!
Heres the link mentioned in my post,
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0303/newzealand_subsidies.shtml
I also think it would be difficult to change your position, especially after being so well known. I guess we could see it as similar to when we first became Vegan? I was 19 when I stopped eating animal flesh, eggs, milk, wearing leather etc. I still ate products that contained milk, I'm not quite sure why. I think it may be because all NZ products seem to have dairy, because of our large dairy industry!
I'd grown up eating "meat lovers" pizza, in a fairly rural city, where "Vegans" were unheard of. It was difficult to get past all of that, at first, but really, whats the worst that could happen to me? My friends may mock me?
I've hope that *everyone* will decide to be Vegan, and that includes Vegans deciding to promote Veganism: If its good enough for us, its good enough for everyone else! :)
Thank you for your comments William, I hope you'll listen to my show :)
Jordan Wyatt